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  #1  
Old 29-03-2006, 06:11 PM
KMR Gan KMR Gan is offline
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Red face Bilums, Security Guards & Privacy

Can someone in the legal circle advice the general public on the issue of Security Guards checking bilums, touching people in the course of checking for stolen goods and to some extent, asaulting kids and women. Are they suppose to do this and to what extent are they allowed to touch people under the law?. This, I consider is deprivation of privacy. Security Guards need to understand the basic principles of the law as a minimum requirement for their employment.
This is driving us nutzzzzzzz. Any comments.......?

KMR...

Last edited by KMR Gan; 29-03-2006 at 07:32 PM.
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  #2  
Old 30-03-2006, 02:58 PM
Alfie Alfie is offline
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Em turu ya! those security's can really be cruel to kids, I've seen it myself and got on them a couple of times. They can check our bags but when expatriates go they dont even bother to take their bags or check them etc.. I think they should stop that non-sense and find other ways to do their checks and I know that they have no right to abuse any child or anyone. You are right about it driving you nutzzzzzzz cause does bother me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMR Gan
Can someone in the legal circle advice the general public on the issue of Security Guards checking bilums, touching people in the course of checking for stolen goods and to some extent, asaulting kids and women. Are they suppose to do this and to what extent are they allowed to touch people under the law?. This, I consider is deprivation of privacy. Security Guards need to understand the basic principles of the law as a minimum requirement for their employment.
This is driving us nutzzzzzzz. Any comments.......?

KMR...
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  #3  
Old 30-03-2006, 07:06 PM
d45south d45south is offline
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Hi KMR Gan,
procedures vary on bilum and body search in PNG shops/stoas. I have recently spent time in PNG in several areas, and yes I am an ex-pat. I found that the national guards often over-stepped what was strictly legal.....however it did appear that there was a rule for nationals, enforced by nationals (the Guards), and what happened with, for instance, ex-pats being checked over by national Guards. Yes it's true.....ex-pats don't have to endure all the trouble at the checkout when shopping, and have the problems with searches. But then most ex-pats would be only too happy to show you their bilum, and submit to a professional 'pat down' search if politely asked. I often encouraged it when I was shopping. It breaks barriers if all are treated the same I found.

Forgetting local tradition, or customary practice, the law as written in the Statutes
varies between countries..but Australia, New Zealand and PNG are all commonwealth
countries, and the written law and intent of it's practical application is pretty similar.
But the conditions are very different..so you have to also remember that also. And this means that the practical application of laws may be meant to be similar....but due to the way a certain country works....the application of security/policing laws and controls in PNG actually works a little different from it's larger Pacific Cousins.

If you go into a shop/stoa (anywhere in these countries) and if there is a prominent sign that is understood by most people that bags and bilums may be examined at anytime before leaving that shop........by going further into the shop/stoa...you are accepting the shops conditions of entry. Basically they are saying if you come in here, you must be prepared to have your bilums searched.

The grey area here (the area that legally in PNG is unclear)..is that in practise, many guards physically 'pat down' customers in stoas....to detect shoplifting etc. Shop goods concealed on the body of the customer. MOst guards I saw, were very professional about this...and they took care to reduce 'bad feelings' of the shops customers.

However......the pat down is also intended to locate weapons. Think about this also.
The more well resourced Security Companies issue their staff metal detectors to detect weapons........but in PNG, stone/bone and wooden weapons are common....
as well as the pistol, scissors, and small stabbing instruments.

I think I would like to go to a stoa where everyone is briefly patted down for weapons, and stolen goods on the way out!! Even the shoplifters would feel safer and come back to the shop, time and time again!!

Seriously.....

Sure this is good in many circumstances............but not strictly legal. Generally to have a personal search ( a 'pat down')... in most countries that procedure requires you to be under arrest at that point already. Like when police have you under arrest.

Another reason why it is not appropriate...is that complaints of (sexual) assualt sometimes arise, when some guards search ....um, too enthusiastically. In which case they should be 'locked up', themselves.

I have seen many instances of what KMR Gan is concerned about, and I also
have my concerns.

But what do you do about it in PNG? And in sincerity, a light 'pat down' search by a guard of the same sex and witnessed by others, should not cause offence. This is because the way things work in PNG are different from Australia and NZ. Simple as that.

However....this should not be an excuse for a thorough 'groping' (indecent assault) or any sort of violence.

The guards are or should be there for the general good of their employer, their client, and in a shopping situation.....for the safety of the public.

Cheers
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Old 30-03-2006, 08:43 PM
KMR Gan KMR Gan is offline
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Hi d45south,

Thank you for your experience and your comments.

Further to that, when you are given a body search, or a 'pat down', though you may be a decent law abiding citizen, it make you feel down graded and lower classed. It makes me feel like a thief sometimes. If such an incident had happened to you in the first part of a morning, your day is already spoilt. I sometimes swore and screech the tyres of my car to vent that anger. The point is you might cause an accident, who is to blame. OK...yourself, but these security guards are are apin in the back more often than a helping hand.

Take my kids for example, they are disciplined kids and I dont like teachers or other relatives to discipline not the least beat them or lay a hand on them. On the same token, I make it clear to them that I work hard for the bread & butter on the table and unless I feel you by stealing, you do not go out and shop lift.

So.....it angers me when I take my kids to the shops and see them being touched by a buai stained toothed security guard with a uniform thats never washed in 2 weeks.

You are right about warining signs. I happen to be a systems auditor and one of the principle of auditing is that you must always warn people. What you do you must write and what you write, you must do.

The idea here is that shop owners must warn the public of intending searches so customer know about it and are not caught in supprise.

My point still remians....can touching without consent be considered assault?

Cheers
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  #5  
Old 06-05-2006, 02:20 PM
Andrew2005 Andrew2005 is offline
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It is not illegal to search bilums, bags etc as long as the store discloses this fact.

It is illegal to conduct a body search or pat down without the persons consent, if confronted by security a person can refuse the body search and ask that a police officer be called to conduct the search.
Technically should security lay a hand on you without your permission this is classified as an assault.

Due to the fact that a great percentage of nationals really do not know thier legal rights, security take advantage of this fact.

But all it requires is one person to take a stand and press assault charges with the police against security should an unauthorised body seach or pat down occurs and then go public with this to the newspapers and you will find security changing thier tactics for fear of legal action against them.

I hope this helps.
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Old 06-05-2006, 06:02 PM
meri-gka meri-gka is offline
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Personally as a young female I do not feel at all comfortable with the searching of bilums & body search when shopping. I feel that in most cases it is totally uneccessary to resort to a body search if the shop has an alarm system in place that could detect stolen goods on an individual. Or it has in place a bilum/bag holder place where the shoppers bag can be kept while shopping then returned afterwards.

A couple of times I've witnessed body checks and bilum checks being done on customers even when there is an alarm sysytem in place. What is the point in having an alarm system if its not left to fulfill its purpose, and security is conducting search on individuals.

It might as well have been a waste of money getting the machine installed in the first place and a waste of human resource, in having security doing checks when they could be doing something more useful for the company.

And like you KMR Gan it bothers me a lot!
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  #7  
Old 08-05-2006, 07:17 PM
KMR Gan KMR Gan is offline
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Angry

Well Andrew2005, you've shed some light on it now. Thats the message I am trying to get across....that touching is assault and is a criminal offence.

Becuase of our ignorance, security is big money and big business. This attitude should stop.

The touching of our wives daughters and young girls without consent should be deemed ciminal.

The public out there.........TAKE A STAND......THE NEXT TIME YOU ARE TOUCHED BY A SECURITY GUARD, PRESS CHARGES..........now lets wait for an incident.

Over to you....law abiding citigens of this beautiful country.

KMR Nem
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